Growth: Best Antidote for Poverty

iVarta.com

	Classifieds, Jobs, Yellow Pages, Real Estate, Property, Blogs, Ticketing, Forums
	Business, Social and Community Networking
	Worldwide Website Open Directory Listing

Forum Home

Latest Discussions

Sitemap

India News Discussion Forum, Comprehensive Collection Information Resource Library. Articles, Columns, Analysis Research Papers. Facts about India, Yoga Meditation Ayurveda Indian History, Culture, Religion, Politics, Business, Terrorism. Mystery Diversity Rich information resource, global Indian community Asia. Guide New Headlines Views, Discussions, Comments Archive Library. Indus Valley Culture. Religious Indians, History Invasion, Hindu, Hinduism, Christianity, Islam. Jammu and Kashmir, international relations USA, Russia, UK, Pakistan, China and more

Growth: Best Antidote for Poverty
India Forum: Comments, Opinion - Information Resource

News Summary: Sixty-one years ago leadership of two newly independent nations in South Asia embarked on two divergent paths for nation building. Ignoring consequences of the choices of 61 years ago, in 2009, to frame an Op-ed by mining statistical economic data alone may lead to stepping on a dung-pile, if not careful. For example, a pundit used statistical data to frame an Op-ed to rhetorically ask, How long will India and Pakistan continues to beg, borrow and steal to fight each other? .....read more in: Growth: Best Antidote for Poverty

Add your comments here

Name

Comments that include profanity or personal attacks or other inappropriate comments or material not following our Guidelines - Report Abuse) will be removed from the site.

Use proper/valid names: NO url, NO Email id. Comments with names like "ABCD", ".." are deleted.
Spammers: Don’t waste your time here. Comments copntaining Commercial/SPAM/Ad words are not listed.
Comments containing Website URL will be listed ONLY after review by our Editors (it may take few hours for the review)

Comments
Total 22 Comments

These comments are about: Growth: Best Antidote for Poverty

Srno	Comment on Current Thread
22	030201kishankb on Feb-16 : S.Ghosh at 05:16 Today: Enjoyed this dialogue. Let"s agree to disagree on this issue and move on. Thanks for your inputs.
21	S.Ghosh on Feb-16 : "In West Bengal and other states in east India, people didn"t think creatively and innovatively to make economic growth a reality." So, now you are trying to blame the victims. No amount of creative thinking would have changed the racist mindest of Gandh-Nehru- and others. They have controlled the purses of India and still doing that. Economic reforms only has removed the license-quota system but still a state government has got no financial freedom at all. Also it still nedds persmissions from more than one Central Ministry to establish a factory. When the resourses of India were diverted to the western and Southern states depriving the resource-rich states of the Eastern India, you have no other way to justify that but saying either (a) The people in the Eastern India are all stpid or (b) they are all destructive Communists etc. India is just a comibation of separate countries; the animocity among the people are very great. The inccidents in Maharastra, Assam, Tamil Nadu, Punjab, showed very will there is no love lost between them and the rest.
20	030201kishankb on Feb-14 : S.Ghosh at 01:43 Today : No Sir, I am consistently arguing that although Central and State government policies from 1951 to mid-1990s were socialistic and responsible for a vast majority of Indians to continue with dependency on bureaucrats and politicians for promised services that were not delivered, in states both you and I have identified some businesses and entrepreneurs took initiatives to build India as we see today. Growth comes with creativity and innovation. In West Bengal and other states in east India, people didn"t think creatively and innovatively to make economic growth a reality. So it goes. Last I check all Indians belong to same race. Describing short changing of West Bengal as racist discrimination simply is incorrect. Is West Bengal part of India and are Bengalis like rest of us Indian first and Bengali and communist, etc second? Don"t mean no disrespect but the names of greats you mentioned were from past. Tell me what is the present?
19	S.Ghosh on Feb-14 : So you are arguing against yourself. If the government before 1991 was a Socialist( it was not under the definition of socialism) and according to your argument a number of states ( I have named those) have got high growth during that period, then Socialism was good for India. However, your have argued Socialism has kept India backward. It is a fact that both Congress and the BJP discriminated against West Bengal. It has started in 1920, when Gandhi took over The Congress without any election and driven out all Bengali leaders( Bipin Pal, Chittaranjan Das, Surendranath Banerjee) who were at the forefront of the freedom movement. Subhas Bose gate crashed against the wishes of Gandhi and he got expelled along with almost all Bengalis from the Congress in 1939. In 1950 Nehru cabinet there was no Bengalis, although Bengalis sacrificed most for the freedom movement( 95 percent of the prosoners in Anadaman jail were Bengalis). Nehru took away everything from West Bengal. Indira Gandhi destroyed all private sector industries. This is nothing but racism. That is the reason both Congress and BJP discriminated against Bengal.
18	030201kishankb on Feb-13 : S.Ghosh at 04:28 Today I disagree that the Governments in India were not socialist until 1991. First Congress and then BJP conspiracy against West Bengal, so you say. I quote, "Murlimanohar Joshi gave money to set 17 new IIM, IIT, IIMS, etc" Dr. Joshi and Vajpayee are BJP. Why did they discriminate against West Bengal? May be because, CPM government of West Bengal is incapable of successful negotiations with those at the Center? Consider the following: Mr. Pranabh Mukharjee represents West Bengal at Center. The speaker of the house, Mr. Somnath is also from West Bengal. CPI supported UPA until differences surfaced over the India-USA Nuclear deal. There is representation at high levels from West Bengal in the Central Government.
17	S.Ghosh on Feb-13 : "....the roots of Bengal"s failures are not the national political environment" How can you say that when it is obvious that West Bengal had suffered since 1950 extreme form of discriminations in the hands of the central government, which favoured certain states( Gujarat, Maharastra, Mysore, TamilNadu,Hariyana, Punjab). Consider the budget of 2007. Rs.2500 Crores was allocated by Chidambaram for the water supply of Madras( Chennai) city only. Rs.25 Crores was allocated for the flood control and water supply for the entire Eastern India. Taxes were reduced by Chidambaram to promote Sivakashi match factories; etra tax was imposed to destroy match factories in West Bengal. Consider Lallu"s Rly budget this year. Frieght corridor will go from Ludhinana to Sonenagar in Bihar, but it will go to West Bengal. There will be 6 Bullet trains for South India and Western India and one connecting New Delhi to Patna; there is nothing for West Bengal or beyond. Murlimanohar Joshi gave money to set 17 new IIM, IIT, IIMS, etc etc, not a single one for West Bengal. in 2000, at least 200 people died and 20,000 were homeless in a flood in West Bengal. Vajpayee gave not even one paisa.
16	S.Ghosh on Feb-13 : This is Chinese Statistics according to The Guardian London: "Chinese living standards poll "brazenly rigged". Jiangsu residents say they were offered 1,000 yuan to answer "correctly". Pupils given day off school to memorise replies. Rural residents were ordered to claim that their annual net income was 8,500 yuan - far above the true figure, city dwellers were told to declare a 16,000 yuan income."
15	A.Moron on Feb-12 : Government control does not mean Socialism. Hitler, Mussolini, Franko, Salazar, Pinochet, were not Socialists
14	S.Ghosh on Feb-12 : 030201kishankb: It seems to me that you do not understand India and recent Indian history since 1950 and how the World Bank or UN got their data. World Bank, IMF and UN depends on their member countries to supply the data. MM Singh government supplied this false data that only 26 percent of the population are below the poverty level, by changing the criteria of poverty. National Sample survey is the core of the Indian statistical services. WB depends on it for data regarding India. One can interpret the data in the way one wants for political purposes. World Bank, IMF are political organization just like the Govt of India. They manipulate data to suit their purposes. The so-called "Socialist" model ( it was not socialist at all but as MN Roy said in 1945 it was a Fascist model of Nehru. Thereby Nehru government transferred all resources from the Eastern states( which are now very poor) to the Western and Southern States, with Maharastra, Gujarat, Mysore, TamilNadu, Haryana. Punjab, Western UP got all the share, depriving other states. West Bengal was the primary victim, as Gandhi-Nehru were anti-Bengalis to start with. Indian planning was not socialist, as socialism means public ownership of all means of production and distribution. In India, private sector used to control all profitable parts of the economy, and private sector used to control the most unprofitable parts of the economy. On top of that Nehru to please his favourite business communities introduced permit-quota-licence to deprive others who are not in his favour. West Bengal had suffered as a result. During 1965-67 all private sector industries were deprived of any government contracts; so they died. This is not socialism, but some kind of racism of Gandhi-Nehru brigade.
13	030201kishankb on Feb-12 : Wow, the WB and Chinese stats are not but a National Sample Survey data is credible! That is incredible Sir, A.Moron on Wednesday. Allowing for build in biases in the WB data, it has one reference line that allows comparisons to find unmistakable trends. The trend line may be shifted depending on the biases but the direction can not be denied. One may question absolute numbers but not the trends, IMO. India"s strict planning and financing - a socialistic concept - left Bengal short changed and communist government empty handed so says S.Ghosh at 05:51 Today. Chinese economy was revamped in 1980s to set on an unparalleled growth trajectory and it took more than 30 years, until current CPM CM tried to change the business environment in Bengal but failed to appease Mamata Benargee, who single handedly derailed the Tata nano motors project. IMO, 61 years of false hopes created dependencies on government and bureaucracy for the socialistic agenda is responsible for the plight of Bengal. Bengal is what its citizens made of it may be with some part played by the central government"s socialistic policies of 1951 to 1995. Bengal suffered and in the same national political environment other states, especially Punjab, Harayana, Gujarat, Maharashtra, and four states in south made progress that to me says the roots of Bengal"s failures are not the national political environment.
12	S.Ghosh on Feb-12 : 030201kishankb: From 1951 to 1995 India has the strict planning and the finance of the states used to be controlled by the Central government along with all investments, projects, imports & exports, contracts for the private sector, license, permits etc etc. Nehru government took away everything that used to stay in West Bengal: State Bank ( Imperial Bank before), LIC, General Insurance, Geological Survey of India, Zoological Survey of India, National Museum, National mint, even the Jute Research Institute. It has invested very little. It gave no compensation to the Hindu refugees from East Pakistan. Both Morarji Desai and Indira Gandhi government refused to give any contract to the private sector industries of West Bengal and as a result most of them died or went away. State government was Congress Government from 1947 to 1966 and from 1970-77; between 1966 to 1970 there was either President"s rule or United Front Government with Rebel Congress as a partner. Communists came into power in 1977, but West Bengal was ruined already by 1966. One may say Communists did nothing. That is true, but without money( which is controlled by the Central government) what a state government can do? In 2000 for earthquake Gujarat got about Rs.20 Billion aid from Delhi. West Bengal had a devastating flood in that year( 2000 dead and 20000 lost their home); it got not even 20 Paisa from the Central government.
11	A.Moron on Feb-11 : Statistics cited by Zakaria and Friedman, quoting the World Bank are false, as the recent (2008) Commission for Unorganized sector quoting the National Sample Survey showed that 77 percent of the Indian are living below the daily income of Rs.20 whereas the $1 per day is the world standard of extreme poverty level. National Sample Survey statistics showed there was no decline of poverty in India. Who can believe Chinese statistics??
10	030201kishankb on Feb-11 : S.Ghosh on Tuesday: Let me suggest you to consult some recent authoritative books published by American Journalists who have first hand knowledge of India"s economic growth for past two decades. Two books published in 2008 that come to mind are Rafik Zakaria, "Post-American World" (2008) and Thomas Friedman, "Flat, Hot and Crowded" (2008). To my way of thinking statistical data from credible sources taken for a period of a decade or more show trends that are unmistakable. One statistical data point quoted by Mr. Friedman is that during last decade or so poverty declined by 200 million in China and India and this number includes 94 million Indians. Your arguments blaming discriminatory treatment by Central Governments from 1947 to 1980s for woes of West Bengal are based IMO on emotions. The state government has been responsible for economic failures in West Bengal. China learned from failures of USSR and until recently West Bengal government failed to understand why in 1980s China switched from a communist to a free market economy model. As we now know, both absolute communists or capitalist economic models are recopies for failures of unimagined proportions. A mixed or hybrid economic model is place in China and most of Indi and it appears to be a success; India and China escaped debacles of Tiger economies in 1990s and so far they appear to be relatively better off than America and Western Europe that were engeged in absolute free market mechanism of managing its economies.
9	S.Ghosh on Feb-10 : S.Kapuria: Communists in Bengal, although they are highly inefficient and lazy, have not turned Bengal from from the most developed state in British India to one of the poorest in India today. It was Nehru, then Indira Gandhi, then subsequent Central government and now Mamata Banerjee. Nehru has asked the Hindu refugees from East Pakistan to get out of India and go back to Pakistan to be killed. They got no compensation; no help. They are the poorest people even today and now possibly 50 % of the population of West Bengal. Nehru government shifted away every Public Institutions, Banks, companies from West Bengal. It has invested nothing. Indira Gandhi refused to give any contract for the private companies in West Bengal. Thereafter very little central money went to West Bengal, but the central government took away every year 70 percent of the taxes collected from West Bengal. Now we have the curse of Mamata Banerjee who is driving away all industries, all projects. On top of that we have Communist Chief Ministers who are incompetent and lazy, watching films, organizing Book Fair when there is no municipal or health facilities. India has a lot of growth, but the conditions of the people are the same. People of neighbouring states of Bihar, Orissa, Jharkhand, Assam are not any better off than the Bengalis, these states are not ruled by the Communists ever.
8	R.Sharma on Feb-10 : S.Kapuria: All most all communists of Bengal were sons of big rich Zamindars and went to Britain to be Barrister-in-Law.
7	R.Sharma on Feb-10 : "Under the current rules for measuring growth in GDP, only activities that involve some transfer of money are economically relevant. This means that the work of the world"s subsistence poor and the work of those raising children and building communities are on the whole considered irrelevant and unproductive by economists. Similarly, the services provided to us free of charge by the planet are also economically invisible, because no money changes hands when we get say fresh air, or clean water. If economically invisible, why should we expect politicians and business leaders in the game of chasing growth to really care about such things? At the same time wars, oil spills and crime waves can be good news for growth figures since they can all increase spending and production. Under this bizarre logic the New Zealand MP and radical economist Marilyn Waring famously pointed out: "If you want a really productive oil tanker voyage, it"s a very good idea to ram your oil tanker into an iceberg. The Exxon Valdez was the most productive oil tanker voyage in history." ( From The Guardian 10 February, 2009)
6	A.Moron on Feb-10 : Error: "there is no grinding poverty in Pakistan as it is in India"
5	A.Moron on Feb-10 : About 34 % of the population of Pakistan used to be non-Muslims; they were either killed or expelled. Of course USA-UK financed Pakistan. On the face of it, Pakistanis are better off; there is grinding poverty in Pakistan as it is in India; they are better fed as well.
4	g kapuria on Feb-10 : In India, certain political parties thrive by keeping people poor. The relevance of the communist party will decline very much if suddenly Bengalis acquire more money.
3	g kapuria on Feb-10 : SG.. Pakistan used to have a slightly better GDP than India. I am not sure where they stand now. But it is widely speculated that Pakistan"s slight edge was financed by US aid.
2	S.Ghosh on Feb-09 : General poverty in India is much worse than that in Pakistan and comparable to that of Bangladesh. India has not done any better than Pakistan regarding the standard of life of the common people.
1	S.Ghosh on Feb-09 : Totally incorrect. Growth of GNP or GDP does not mean development; does not mean poverty goes down. If 95 % of the people have fixed income, only 5 % of the people have 10 % growth of income, total income ( GNP) of the country would go up by 10 %. That will not have any effect on poverty at all. 77 % of the people of India are below the poverty line( according to the Commission for the Unorganized Sector)) even after all these MamMohan Economics for the last 18 years.
1

Growth: Best Antidote for Poverty - Thread over

Current Threads

F.Kemal at 17:46 Today : Stop eating beef! India tells West [1 comments]

This idiot should first tell muslimes of India to stop butchering cows and eating beef - But KKKangrass fellows don"t have guts to say anything to muslimes but they give bhashans at every conceivable opportunity to others...

teja at 11:31 Today : I will become CM sooner or later: Jagan Reddy [5 comments]

yes.in future jagan willbe the next CM.

	Other comments on this post
	F.Kemal on Nov-12 : Any thoughts of gifting him an helicopter ?

Mohan on Nov-11 : Grand Villain, Villain, and the Villain ghost - that is
YSR"s dad, YSR, YSR"s son - all from family of goons.

g kapuria on Nov-11 : Folks in AP should dread that day when Jagan becomes their chief minister.

Reddy Raj on Nov-11 : Once this guy becomes CM of Andhra Pradesh, then AP will become Christian State in his rule. Conversion will be daily routine.
He blew one temple using dynamite, so he try to demolish Balaji temple collect all the gold.

Daksha at 11:22 Today : Fundamentalist Muslim is the biggest threat to Ind.. [5 comments]

There is no difference between fundamentalist muslim or moderate muslim. The only difference between them is the size of beard. Islam is agiant all civilizations.

	Other comments on this post
	g kapuria on Friday : PH..I am with you. The fault is with the BJP. I cannot understand why they go with the Shiv Sena and MNS goondas.

Proud Hindu on Friday : We all must strongly denounce and condemn the violence and the gundagiri of the Shiv Sena and the MNS. Throw these bums out. They don"t represent me, a proud Hindu, in the least.

g kapuria on Friday : I strongly disagree. Secularists are the biggest threat to India. They shelter the fundamentalist muslims and christians. Secularist newsmedia do not report their misdeeds, which gives goondas like Bal and Raj Thackeray a platform.

common sense at 08:01 Today : SC refuses to stop idol immersion [1 comments]

God helps those who help themselves! Indians need to be told what is good for them!

common sense at 07:57 Today : PM-Obama banquet: It just keeps getting bigger [1 comments]

The banquet has become a punjabi festival or a wedding party. Drink, eat, and go home!

common sense at 07:54 Today : Will act against the ringleaders: Chavan [1 comments]

The local law enforcement agency should have taken action by now. Why the CM should be promising to take action that it should have been taken by now!

Comments (till the day of this story)

Pete Parthu on Feb-15 : Rahul endorses Manmohan | Takes on Modi [1 comments]

So now Indian press/media reports "endorsements" in US style...

common sense on Feb-14 : Singh is UPA"s PM candidate: Rahul [1 comments]

Dr MMS is past his prime. Better he spends time enjoying time with his family.

He does not have to compete with others beyond prime but intent to compete.

Concerned Indian on Feb-14 : Katrina Kaif to talk in Hindi [9 comments]

Are muslims not Ïndians?
What gave you the idea that, Ony Hindus are Indians and Muslims are not?
Why are you guys only breeding hate on this web site, you dont speak any thing constructive just destructive, then blaming every one else to be communal when you guys are communal yourselves to the Core.

Gupta on Feb-12 : Police asked to "guard" lovers on V-Day in UP [1 comments]

While I see nothing wrong with celebrating V-day, public displays of affection are unnecessary. Even in the UK and USA, it is rarely done. Holding hands or quick kisses are okay, but not what some people do out in public.

Truth Speaks on Feb-12 : India lowers heat on Pak, but no lowering guard [1 comments]

I think UPA Congress is surrendered India to Islamic Terrorists and Pakistan.

g kapuria on Feb-11 : Catholic Church reopens door to heaven [1 comments]

There you go! Their sin-buying business is back in force.

wijayapala on Feb-14 : US freezes assets of pro-LTTE Tamil charity [13 comments]

Hello I am a Sri Lankan friend of Mohan and I would like to correct some misperceptions here. There is no genocide against Tamils more or less Hindus or Hinduism. The Sri Lankan military has avoided civilian casualties up until recently, but the LTTE is now cornered and is using Tamils as human shields. These Tamils represent about 1/10th of the....

swamijyoti on Feb-15 : Reclaiming India [27 comments]

Feedback sent to Author: Reclaiming-India,-Indian-History,-Heritage

Need of the Hour: Reclaiming India, India"s History & Heritage
-- A Hindu Agenda
http://vivekajyoti.blogspot.com/2009/02/need-of-hour-reclaiming-india-indias.html

Mayank Patel on Feb-12 : Shaktivad: The Vision for Action (Part I) [2 comments]

Saikat has done a fantastic and original analysis. The three categories and path followed in each category provides lot of clarity.

Let me add an old gujarati saying "Durbal Dhani Baire Pur Shuro" meaning "Durbal husband is rough and tough with his wife".

In indian context, Durbalvadi Fabian-Stalinist (ie. all non-bjp parties) is ....

Mayank Patel on Feb-12 : Pakistan"s Unholy Trinity [1 comments]

Vivek has provided a very insightful analysis recognizing painful reality and concluding it with right action plan.

It would be much easier to explain with an example. Fast forward to year 2600AD, Imagine there is a nation named Nazistan who history books describe hitler as the leading light of it"s civilization. Nazistan"s missiles and we....

Growth: Best Antidote for Poverty

India Forum: Comments, Opinion, - Information Resource

Copyright and Disclaimer:
The views expressed in this forum are of the People/Visitors/Authors who post them and not of this website. The author is solely responsible for the contents of the Posts/Views/Opinions on this Discussion Board, Forums. This website does not represent or endorse the accuracy, completeness or reliability of any opinion, statement, appeal, advice or any other information in the Forum Posts. Our readers are free to forward this forum page URL to anyone. This forum posts may NOT be transmitted or distributed by others in any manner whatsoever (other than forwarding or web listing page URL) without the prior permission from this website.