Expert: Indus script linguistically Dravidian

iVarta.com

	Classifieds, Jobs, Yellow Pages, Real Estate, Property, Blogs, Ticketing, Forums
	Business, Social and Community Networking
	Worldwide Website Open Directory Listing

Forum Home

Latest Discussions

Sitemap

India News Discussion Forum, Comprehensive Collection Information Resource Library. Articles, Columns, Analysis Research Papers. Facts about India, Yoga Meditation Ayurveda Indian History, Culture, Religion, Politics, Business, Terrorism. Mystery Diversity Rich information resource, global Indian community Asia. Guide New Headlines Views, Discussions, Comments Archive Library. Indus Valley Culture. Religious Indians, History Invasion, Hindu, Hinduism, Christianity, Islam. Jammu and Kashmir, international relations USA, Russia, UK, Pakistan, China and more

Expert: Indus script linguistically Dravidian
India Forum: Comments, Opinion - Information Resource

News Summary: Expert: Indus script linguistically Dravidian.....read more in: Expert: Indus script linguistically Dravidian

Add your comments here

Name

Comments that include profanity or personal attacks or other inappropriate comments or material not following our Guidelines - Report Abuse) will be removed from the site.

Use proper/valid names: NO url, NO Email id. Comments with names like "ABCD", ".." are deleted.
Spammers: Don’t waste your time here. Comments copntaining Commercial/SPAM/Ad words are not listed.
Comments containing Website URL will be listed ONLY after review by our Editors (it may take few hours for the review)

Comments
Total 27 Comments

These comments are about: Expert: Indus script linguistically Dravidian

Srno	Comment on Current Thread
27	Jai on Oct-12 : AM a good observation,thanks.
26	A.Moron on Oct-11 : The problem of people like Mahadevan is that they accept the AIT in 1500BC and calculate everything according to that assumption, which is wrong. The recent Genetic study of Harvard reveals what Swami Vivekananda and Sri Aurobindo said many times about 100 years ago, that there is no fundamental difference between the North Indian and Dravidians, but it was artificially created by the British missioneries. The genetic study talks about 40000BC, when the two streams of people mixed together. Tamil language is not 42000 years old.
25	hindu on Oct-11 : hey guys you are wrong according to indian seculars it can only be islamo-christian lingo because india doesnt have any pre islamic or pre christian history
24	Mohan on Oct-11 : Genetic oneness does not preclude existence of diversity. So, the so-called Aryan and Dravidian linguistic families can and have co-existed, and Sanskrit ( refined form of Prakrit ) has enriched most Indian languages to varying degrees especially from 1200-1300 AD. If you read Tamil, Kannada or Telugu texts of the old times, there is a lot of pure native language form and vocabulary i.e., very very little Sanskritic influence. Malayalam branched out of Tamil because it mixed with Sanskrit freely. From 14th century Bhakti movement swept the subcontinent and Sanskrit influence was irreversible, making the vocabulary inroads into native languages. And Sanskrit itself is refined form of Prakrit. And Prakrit is evolution from proto languages of the bygone era. All this is fascinating, and Indian languages have different roots and routes, but same "proto" roots. Sanskrit is by far the biggest contributor of loan words in modern Indian languages as we know today.
23	Truth Speaks on Oct-11 : All so called Dravidian languages are very closely linked with Sanskrit. That means even the Dravidian languages are originated from Sanskrit. All Indian languages have their root in Sanskrit, no matter what.
22	Ruy Lopez on Oct-11 : That is the problem. Pre Aryan presupposes division. If people are one genetically as has been proved thrashing AIT etc. there is no presupposition pre Aryan or pre Dravidian. And same way if people are one it is no mixing. Mixing and migrating and Aryan invasion basically is the same division routing of natives whoever they have been and superiority of invaders or mixers or migrants routing and defeating and putting in farthest corners natives if you believe pre Aryan and aborigins and Dravidian division. I really suspect article. It tries to hide behind linguistic division. Of course, there are some who will continue some more time to be fooled.
21	S Mishra on Oct-11 : Even if as per Indus Script readings, if their "script" pre-dates Aryan scripts, why should some people feel uncomfortable ? Beats me. It is impossible to believe that the world was frozen with nothing else happening when the Vedic time began. It is okay if Dravidian languages were older. This should give us more pride as Indians. From time immemorial we are one, inter-mixed.
20	Mohan on Oct-11 : I think part of the problem is that Rig Vedic time is so old and simple that even religion was not well-defined. deities such as Indra are most commonly mentioned in the Rig Vedic texts. Vishnu is mentioned very few times, and Shiva is listed as Rudra, again very few times. Cow is listed a few times. And Sky is. The river they mentioned got entirely dried up and they, with their oral versions of Vedic text moved eastward. In a way, the Vedas were evolving. Iravatham is focussing on the Indus period when urban landscape existed and the region used brahui and such dialects which were north-Indian Dravidian as per Dravidian family classification and closer to Saivite beliefs based on artifacts - call it a proto belief if you will. An assimilation of languages and cultures may have happened and Iravatham is exploring based on available inscriptions and evidences. If his evidences point to "pre Aryan linguistic" era, that is all it is. It does not mean that Aryan culture and Vedas are less older. The investigation has given substantial evidence only upto a point. It us the responsibility of academics and scholars to dig deeper and find more evidentially to shift the time frame. I maintain that Iravatham is a respected scholar who has backed up what he has said and he is dedicated authority on Indus Scripts and he is not in the empty drum mould of Arundhati and such creeps and not a race ideologist.
19	Ruy Lopez on Oct-11 : If any proof of author being an idiot is required, read the excerpts from his this very article: "...Mr. Mahadevan, who specialises in the Indus script and Tamil-Brahmi inscriptions, said there was also substantial archaeological evidence to support the view that Indus Civilisation was pre-Aryan. The Indus Civilisation was urban, while the Vedic culture was rural and pastoral. The Indus seals, he said, do not depict the horse and the chariot with "spooked wheels," which were the defining pieces of the Aryan-speaking societies. "The Indus religion as revealed by the pictorial depiction on seals included worship of a buffalo-horned male god, mother-goddesses, the pipal tree and the serpent, and possibly the phallic symbol. Such modes of worship present in Hinduism are known to have been derived from the aboriginal population and are totally alien to the religion of the Rig Veda." His mentioning the word pre Aryan suggests that Aryans were non native or whoever were Aryans or their languages were later development than earlier development of Dravidian languages. If Aryans were one original people their languages like Brahmi, Sanskrit Prakrit or Dravidian groups must have been simultaneously developed according to regional differences but connected and thus can not be termed in any respect Pre Aryan because every language is of one people original natives. The author must be a promoted expert or author in like like Arundhati Roy, or painter MF Hussein, or Nautankis Khans in Bollywood which should wake up softbrains and understand that our rock stars are not your rock stars.
18	Ruy Lopez on Oct-11 : If any proof of author being an idiot is required, read the excerpts from his this very article: "...Mr. Mahadevan, who specialises in the Indus script and Tamil-Brahmi inscriptions, said there was also substantial archaeological evidence to support the view that Indus Civilisation was pre-Aryan. The Indus Civilisation was urban, while the Vedic culture was rural and pastoral. The Indus seals, he said, do not depict the horse and the chariot with "spooked wheels," which were the defining pieces of the Aryan-speaking societies. "The Indus religion as revealed by the pictorial depiction on seals included worship of a buffalo-horned male god, mother-goddesses, the pipal tree and the serpent, and possibly the phallic symbol. Such modes of worship present in Hinduism are known to have been derived from the aboriginal population and are totally alien to the religion of the Rig Veda." His mentioning the word pre Aryan suggests that Aryans were non native or whoever were Aryans or their languages were later development than earlier development of Dravidian languages. If Aryans were one original people their languages like Brahmi, Sanskrit Prakrit or Dravidian groups must have been simultaneously developed according to regional differences but connected and thus can not be termed in any respect Pre Aryan because every language is of one people original natives. The author must be a promoted expert or author in like like Arundhati Roy, or painter MF Hussein, or Nautankis Khans in Bollywood which should wake up softbrains and understand that our rock stars are not your rock stars.
17	Mohan on Oct-11 : Who is saying that Brahmi is Tamil script ? Not the author and not us. Brahmi script is ancestor to all writing systems in South Asia. Tamil-Brahmi was an early variant of the Brahmi script used to write Tamil characters. It is also known as the Tamili script. It is distinguished from standard Asokan Brahmi, by an inherent vowel marker for pure consonants and consonants. This is what Iravatham is talking about. Tamil Brahmi is predecessor to Tamil script as known. This thread is of no use - the expert is being belittled and attacked for what he is not and for what he is not saying. Wiki says : A broken storage jar with inscriptions in Tamil Brahmi script in Egypt.[5] An urn at the Iron Age burial site at Adichanallur.[1] Tamil-Brahmi inscription on pottery found in Thailand.[6] Potsherds with Tamil Brahmi inscriptions found in Poonagari, Jaffna.[7]
16	A.Moron on Oct-11 : Avesta cannot be older than Rig Veda, because Zorathustra has tried to abolish the worship of Mithra from Iran, ho used to consider Mithra as their principal God. Mithra was mentioned in the Rig Veda, thus Rig Veda was much earlier than Zorathrustra. It is again a British theory that Indus Valley was an extension of Iranian civilization, because the British do not want to give any credit to India at all. Brahmi scipt is not Tamil. Mahadevan is a fanatic Tamil, according to him everything is Tamil. These type of people have made Tamils very unpopular in India. The genetic research showed there is no genetic differences between North Indian and South Indian at least for the last 40,000 years. According to the Soviet archeologists, ignored so far by the pro-British Indian historians, Aryans of Sinstra Valley( near Ural mountain) originally came from India who have started their journey through Iran, Turkey, Armenia and then to Russia at least 10,000 years ago and established Sinstra Valley civilization about 6000 years ago.
15	Mohan on Oct-10 : India gave the world "ganitham", "shulbasutras" ( geometry, Vedic math, decimals etc ). Some of our works were not known to the world until Arabic scholars translated them; and those guys added their names too to it e.g. Hindu-Arabic numerals etc. Very unfortunate that we are now walking duds of our past, with little understanding or pride. We"ll clap hands when a Stephen Knapp or someone from outside writes something. Even the Vedas have authentic translation done not by Indians but western scholars.
14	Mohan on Oct-10 : >>What can you expect of citizens who are taken for ride by the administration who has no clue what the subtle psychology has almost destroyed a beneficial civilization by betrayal and brainwashed followers? I would put that pseud0-intellectual historians who generated the AIT in this category, starting with Max Mueller and all the way till Romila Thapar. We are lucky to note that the AIT has been buried. Current theory is a cross of AMT (migration theory) and OIT (out of India ) theory.
13	Ruy Lopez on Oct-10 : Forbidden archeology a very eye opening book has documented and challenged the bookish acceptance of Middle Eastern centeric and motivated straight line method of civilization evaluation. It has proposed rather cyclical development of civilization, which can explain non rusted iron pillar in Delhi, many monumental buildings engineering, aireal views of thousands of years old landing strips, Vimanas and nuclear wars trashing and extending limited time frame of civilization. Indian incompetence only slowly finding ancient sites like submerged Dwarka and natural and manmade havocs have destroyed or buryied the evidence in east and south India. Even some places in Bay of Bengal south of Andhra have found highly civilized existence at least 7000 years including NASA"s original report of a manmade bridge at least 10 years old linking Sri lanka and India. That means Vedic civilization was 99 p.c in the present day India and fringe borders and provinces were promoted motivatedly.
12	Mohan on Oct-10 : Ruy Lopez, this time you are not wrong, but not entirely right either. Rig Veda originates from what is today greater Iran region which means more than the 70-80 % I tentatively mentioned. The origin is controversial still among scholars. The other Vedas have more Indian geography covered to the right of River Saraswathi which again is not clear ( scholars are divided on where this river is - Gaghar-Hakra and Helmand are listed candidate - Saraswathi river is not mentioned in later part of Rigveda, though it appears some 70 odd times ). Sanskrit words went into Avestan too, so Zend Avesta has bunch of common stuff with Sanskrit. Iravatham is not denying any of this and he is not into Aryan/Dravidian race theory at all ( which is a mess we don"t want to get into - we know that AIT and AMT and so on make very little sense - these are speculative compared to Iravatham"s solid epigraphy based work ) He is purely talking based on evidence, methodically on the strength of epigraphy - scripts and symbols. It is not fair to attack him as an idiot expert or fanatic at all. He knows far more than us folks writing here, check for yourself on the web.
11	Ruy Lopez on Oct-10 : How Vedic Civilization is 70-0 pc. foreign? Even Indus Valley name given is misleading because more sites have been found in Gujarat than originally found in Sind Pakistan. Just because name is Indus, only simple minded people will think it is mostly Pakistani and foreign. As regards Vedic civilization, it is actually a civilization much earlier than Indus or any other known civilization because it refers to the location uncountable times of River Saraswati which again was primarily in Rajashthan and Gujarat but source was with Ganga river Valley in Uttarpradesh, Himachal Pradesh, Haryana, part of Indian Punjab etc. It has been systematically nurtured in to soft and simple minds that Vedic civilization was primarily present day out cureent Indian boundry. Before Indian partion, such non Hindu regions were promoted to be primary Vedic sites to deprive Hindus of physical connection just as Aryan invasion was promoted to deprive Hindus of their original achievements being aborigin or defeated natives evicted by routine invaders from north to connect, legitimize and solidify mental slavery for another one thousand years. What can you expect of citizens who are taken for ride by the administration who has no clue what the subtle psychology has almost destroyed a beneficial civilization by betrayal and brainwashed followers?
10	Mohan on Oct-10 : >>This is a very old Tamil thesis. no body has yet deciphered the Indus script. Thus, it is absurd to say that was Tamil. The artifacts mentioned by the author are also North Indian, not Tamil or from the aborigins. It is not about Tamil or ideology. Archealogical Survey of India has published his original work on Indus Script and tables. He has not denied that artifacts are in the northern region of current-day India. It is 100% true that Dravidian languages existed in Afghan/Pak/North-Western India, evidence points to Dravidian language speakers ( note: Dravidian is a branch of languages and not Tamil - Tamil is one of the Dravidian languages, just like Brahui, Munda and bunch of other languages ). The Northern India/north-western region of South Asia has the following Dravidian languages : Kurukh-Malto, Kurukh (Oraon), Malto, Kumarbhag, Paharia, Sauria Paharia, Brahui.
9	Mohan on Oct-10 : Iravtham is a leading authority on Indus Script and Iravatham"s credentials listed everywhere on the web : Iravatham Mahadevan Iravatham Mahadevan is India"s most highly respected scholar of the undeciphered ancient Indus script. He is also the first to acknowledge that nothing is certain, even his own interpetations. A Tamil speaker, he has used historical linguistics and statistical studies to examine the Dravidian components in Vedic Sanskrit, and how these might point to interpretations of the Indus Valley script. Known for his breakthrough decipherments of the earliest Tamil Brahmi writing, his thoughts on the relationship between ancient Indus writing and Brahmi writing bear weight. A longtime civil servant, he used a fellowship opportunity to put together the first script concordance of Indian seals in 1970. His publications include The Indus Script: Texts, Concordance and Tables (1977)
8	Mohan on Oct-10 : Ruy Lopez ( do you like Chess ?! ) See, you"ve toned down, you are not able to attack the author based on your earlier vitriol about DNA and now you"ve come with if not this, that etc - none of which the author has written about. Where is the concept of Foreigner here ? By current boundaries, entire Vedic civilization may be foreign by 70-80 %. Even Indus valley is foreign by equal measure if you go by current boundaries. I urge you to argue based on the article"s parameters instead of getting irrelevant things. The author is not trying to "act scholarly" and not trying to "justify division"; if anything he is unifying by saying proto-Dravidian words too were loaned into a mix of languages. And composite society is a true depiction of India - a diverse nation. Further, the article is a simple gist of his work; his actual work will have the references to the exact words/text he is referring to, which will most likely open your eyes or freeze you in your track from critiquing in the wrong direction.
7	Ruy Lopez on Oct-10 : "Read and re-read the article.." still Indians don"t get it. Of course, they act scholarly and pathetically try to justify division. If not Aryan invasion, it is migration. If it is not migration, it is linguistic merger of foreigner Aryans millenium ago. Composite society was created but it was never one! Only question is it proof of soft and simple mind or part of whole mis and disinformation? Atleast it is no accident.
6	Ruy Lopez on Oct-10 : "Read and re-read the article.." still Indians don"t get it. Of course, they act scholarly and pathetically try to justify division. If not Aryan invasion, it is migration. If it is not migration, it is linguistic merger of foreigner Aryans millenium ago. Composite society was created but it was never one! Only question is it proof of soft and simple mind or part of whole mis and disinformation? Atleast it is no accident.
5	Mohan on Oct-10 : I"ve read and re-read the article; it doesn"t look incendiary as wrongly believed here, and not fanatic at all. Rig Vedic and Indus valley period is dated similarly in world history, and so is Avestan period and Sinstara valley ( if you google ). I personally believe that Rig Vedic /Avestan period is older - 7 to 10 thousand years old, and may have spread a long time, overlapping with Indus Valley time. Some of Rig Vedic composition happened early and some late. Coming to the article, this passage says it all : "Clarifying that he was employing the terms, "Aryan" and "Dravidian," only in linguistic sense, he said speakers of the Aryan languages indistinguishably merged with Dravidian and Munda-speaking people millennia ago, creating a composite Indian society." These are only in linguistic sense. Second, Dravidian language family has its spread in North-Western / afghan / pak areas as per history of languages; there are a bunch of Dravidian languages in that region, a few tribal tongues alive even today. Brahui is one of them. Incidentally, all Asian language scripts originate from Brahmi script ( including dravidian ). The author has made a study using available material, old texts and anthologies. If you can, argue based on facts with text ( proto Prakrit/sanskrit/dravidian languages etc ).
4	S.Ghosh on Oct-10 : This is a very old Tamil thesis. no body has yet deciphered the Indus script. Thus, it is absurd to say that was Tamil. The artifacts mentioned by the author are also North Indian, not Tamil or from the aborigins. The author has assumed, that Rig Veda was contemporary of Indus valley, that is false. Rig Veda was much older than Indus valley. How the author can explain that in Sinstra valley ( in Russia) at the same time as Indus valley there was another Aryan civilization. Tamil fanaticism has gone too far.
3	Ruy Lopez on Oct-10 : This idiot again tries to divide India into pre Aryan civilization in India where as Aryans are native. All Indians DNA match as one people even Pakistanis". Tamilians are as Arya as any other province"s residents. Arya means good and bold people and most of the time Tamilians are always more Arya then overwhelmed Pakistanis. The division was British ploy and idiots like the author are either true idiot or idiotic agents who want perpetuate falsehood hoodwinkin fools which are many in today"s administered India.
2	Mohan on Oct-10 : >>An Idiot expert, an idiotic news paper which has nothing to do with Hinduism and idiotic stale idea which has proved to be false. Can you explain what is idiotic and wrong with the expert"s finding ?
1	Ruy Lopez on Oct-10 : An Idiot expert, an idiotic news paper which has nothing to do with Hinduism and idiotic stale idea which has proved to be false.
1

Expert: Indus script linguistically Dravidian - Thread over

Current Threads

F.Kemal at 17:46 Today : Stop eating beef! India tells West [1 comments]

This idiot should first tell muslimes of India to stop butchering cows and eating beef - But KKKangrass fellows don"t have guts to say anything to muslimes but they give bhashans at every conceivable opportunity to others...

teja at 11:31 Today : I will become CM sooner or later: Jagan Reddy [5 comments]

yes.in future jagan willbe the next CM.

	Other comments on this post
	F.Kemal on Nov-12 : Any thoughts of gifting him an helicopter ?

Mohan on Nov-11 : Grand Villain, Villain, and the Villain ghost - that is
YSR"s dad, YSR, YSR"s son - all from family of goons.

g kapuria on Nov-11 : Folks in AP should dread that day when Jagan becomes their chief minister.

Reddy Raj on Nov-11 : Once this guy becomes CM of Andhra Pradesh, then AP will become Christian State in his rule. Conversion will be daily routine.
He blew one temple using dynamite, so he try to demolish Balaji temple collect all the gold.

Daksha at 11:22 Today : Fundamentalist Muslim is the biggest threat to Ind.. [5 comments]

There is no difference between fundamentalist muslim or moderate muslim. The only difference between them is the size of beard. Islam is agiant all civilizations.

	Other comments on this post
	g kapuria on Friday : PH..I am with you. The fault is with the BJP. I cannot understand why they go with the Shiv Sena and MNS goondas.

Proud Hindu on Friday : We all must strongly denounce and condemn the violence and the gundagiri of the Shiv Sena and the MNS. Throw these bums out. They don"t represent me, a proud Hindu, in the least.

g kapuria on Friday : I strongly disagree. Secularists are the biggest threat to India. They shelter the fundamentalist muslims and christians. Secularist newsmedia do not report their misdeeds, which gives goondas like Bal and Raj Thackeray a platform.

common sense at 08:01 Today : SC refuses to stop idol immersion [1 comments]

God helps those who help themselves! Indians need to be told what is good for them!

common sense at 07:57 Today : PM-Obama banquet: It just keeps getting bigger [1 comments]

The banquet has become a punjabi festival or a wedding party. Drink, eat, and go home!

common sense at 07:54 Today : Will act against the ringleaders: Chavan [1 comments]

The local law enforcement agency should have taken action by now. Why the CM should be promising to take action that it should have been taken by now!

Comments (till the day of this story)

Mohan on Oct-11 : Commandos storm Pakistan army HQ, freeing 39 hosta.. [3 comments]

Not clear who"s terr0rist and who"s not.
This is Pak, so what do we expect.
Just hope that India is on alert - the "captured Talibans"
are being pushed to infiltrate into India.

common sense on Oct-11 : Rajapaksa"s ruling coalition sweeps polls in south [1 comments]

So many crorpatis and so many convicts, and still no choice! The author must be kidding!

common sense on Oct-11 : Special: Not much choice before Maharashtra voters [1 comments]

So many crorpatis and so many convicts, and still no choice! The author must be kidding!

Nirnaami on Oct-11 : RSS red-faced over Rahul pat [1 comments]

The parochialism , casteism & oneupmanship among Indians successfully ensure nothing worthwhile ever gets achieved or sustained for long.

Recall , during tsunami Vivek Oberoi earnestly embarked on building houses , providing water , food for the victims. Which was wantonly & viciously thwarted by kollywood , led by kollywood"s Vivek ( ir....

A.Moron on Oct-11 : Nobel Prize for Peace has lost all credibility [2 comments]

Nobel Prize has no credibility for a long time.
Peace prize was given to Kissinger, who is responsible for the killings of 1 million in Chile, 3-4 millions in Vietnam-Cambodia, 3 million in East Pakistan.

Three Americans got Nobel prize to apply the theor of S.N.Bose, who never got the Nobel Prize.

Marconi got Nobel prize by c....

A.Moron on Oct-11 : Do we hear the curse of the dying children? [1 comments]

Children cannot and donot curse.

common sense on Oct-11 : Make Sena-BJP win, ailing Thackeray appeals to vot.. [1 comments]

A report prepared by the National Election Watch states:

The Shiv Sena tops the list with 98 of the 153 Sena candidates having at least one criminal record against them.

The Bharatiya Janata Party comes second with 66 such candidates. In all, the BJP has fielded 164 candidates.

The MNS stands third with 81 of the total ....

S.Ghosh on Oct-10 : War on Naxals declared! 40000 cops! Rs 7300 crore [1 comments]

Police cannot do it. In West Bengal police failed completely to control the Naxals, as they have no eqipments or weapons. It is the job of the army and airforce.

common sense on Oct-10 : Advani says he dreams of "grand" Ram temple [1 comments]

Dreams are what is left for the oldie advani to dream and talk about!

Mohan on Oct-10 : PM grants Rs 1,000 crore relief for flood-hit Karn.. [3 comments]

>>He gave nothing for the cyclone hit West Bengal.

Not sure about that, but I wouldn"t be surprised
if he did not give 1000 crores. I remember him deputing
Pranab to tour WB/Assam. I may be wrong. Regarding AP,
AP is a Congress client. If the state were ruled by TDP
then it would have been orphaned.
This is how ....

Expert: Indus script linguistically Dravidian

India Forum: Comments, Opinion, - Information Resource

Copyright and Disclaimer:
The views expressed in this forum are of the People/Visitors/Authors who post them and not of this website. The author is solely responsible for the contents of the Posts/Views/Opinions on this Discussion Board, Forums. This website does not represent or endorse the accuracy, completeness or reliability of any opinion, statement, appeal, advice or any other information in the Forum Posts. Our readers are free to forward this forum page URL to anyone. This forum posts may NOT be transmitted or distributed by others in any manner whatsoever (other than forwarding or web listing page URL) without the prior permission from this website.